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 Jutsu Limits

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Nakago Yaiba
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PostSubject: Jutsu Limits   Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:29 pm

Okay, lets set up clear and defined limits on what is acceptable and what is not. As more stuff is decided on, I'll add it to this post.


WHAT NOT TO MAKE

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PostSubject: Re: Jutsu Limits   Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:59 pm

I'd actually recommend we work through General Rules, Combat Skills, and Stats first, considering a lot of our issues with the jutsu approved were because of their relationship to those categories.

Anyway, to add a few basic things:

Don't make the majority of your clan's technique's as fast as the 4th Raikage when they all practically one-shot anyone they hit.

If you shoot some sort of a jutsu, its speed is not determined by your stamina.

Do not approve techniques that are give absurd stat boosts unless they have a massive drawback. We should keep Canon techniques like LRA as the most powerful of its kind, so let's not let people make customs that make the godly Canon techniques look like trash.

Do not become lenient on the customs of Kage just because they are Kage and supposed to be strong.

If a technique is strong, A-ranked or higher, there should be some drawbacks above your "normal clan drawbacks."


Actually, half of those are "What you should look for as staff" an half of them are "What you should look at when you're creating the technique."

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PostSubject: Re: Jutsu Limits   Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:24 pm

I'd like to add, for staff, that they should not TRY to make OP jutsu. Just make regular jutsu that can be used to suit their needs. You don't need to make a jutsu that spawns 50 fireballs, and whenever one fireball hits, it explodes and the explosion makes 2 more fireballs that explode on you etc and etc. You don't need a badass seal that turns your empty eye socket into a black hole. That stuff is unnecessary, cheap and should be denied. Just because it looks or sounds cool does not mean it should be approved.

Look at it this way, if you have a sketchy feeling about it, then don't approve it.

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PostSubject: Re: Jutsu Limits   Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:43 am

Quote :
I'd like to add, for staff, that they should not TRY to make OP jutsu. Just make regular jutsu that can be used to suit their needs. You don't need to make a jutsu that spawns 50 fireballs, and whenever one fireball hits, it explodes and the explosion makes 2 more fireballs that explode on you etc and etc. You don't need a badass seal that turns your empty eye socket into a black hole. That stuff is unnecessary, cheap and should be denied. Just because it looks or sounds cool does not mean it should be approved.


I laughed at the bold sentence. Bravo xD

But nah, seriously, Nakago strikes a good point. If you're a bit iffy about it, ask another staff member to look at it and help you decide.

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PostSubject: Re: Jutsu Limits   Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:07 pm

Wall of text incoming.

I propose something a little more extreme. We should not allow SS rank techniques to be learned on application. Hell, I think the same should go for S rank techniques. That being said, I want to explore what these techniques should mean, compared to how they've been treated.

S and SS rank techniques are probably the most sought after, as is evident from the technique registrations. In the universe, however, many characters don't even have S rank techniques. According to the Naruto wikia: Rasenshuriken, Flying Thunder God, Edo Tensei, etc are all S rank techniques. Realistically, I'd put the latter two into the SS rank category, but that doesn't actually exist in the manga or anime.

I think that if someone wants to know a technique like this that they should be expected to do more than simply write up a couple of posts. These techniques are meant to be extremely powerful and difficult to master. Naruto spent weeks training Rasenshuriken, and that was only after he was able to use his mastery of shadow clones to speed the process. Orochimaru did experiment after experiment perfecting Edo Tensei. The Raikage uses LRA exclusively, it seems; and the list goes on and on.

These kinds of moves have a direct impact on character fighting styles. Kakazu and his Earth Grudge Fear, for instance, is just a technique that he learned, but the benefits are amazing. So, here is my idea. We can have people create S or SS rank techniques once they are able to by their given combat skill. At that point, a staff member will take a look and this is the important part.

It should be relentlessly attacked. Every detail should be hammered out and in writing. Even if specifics are not mentioned in canon, they should be made up. Are there different stages of mastery? What effects does it have on the environment around you? What boons and drawbacks does this technique provide? How much chakra does the technique cost? How is it controlled. Etc. The fewer ambiguous cases we have going into our world, the better off we will be as a forum. Following this party of balancing and clarification is complete, we will move on to the process.

No, I don't believe that someone should be able to learn something like LRA and FTG right off the bat, nor do I believe they should be able to simply take a look at a scroll, try it out and have it mastered. We should give them some sort of direction to begin learning that technique. Again, if we take Kakazu's Earth Grudge Fear, as an example, we can draw a picture of a potential journey to learn this powerful technique.

Someone writes up and registers for Earth Grudge Fear, SS rank. After a couple of days of tearing it apart and rebuilding it to perfection, we give the player a quest. In this case, we can send them to Takigakure where they have to infiltrate the village and steal the scroll. Depending on the technique,  we can have someone roleplay against them (As a plot moderator, I wouldn't mind dealing with this sort of thing) or have them run through it themselves (although this will have to be monitored). After they have stolen the scroll, their process is still not over. The technique involves the transforming of their body into a mass of black threads. Looking at a scroll won't do that for you. For this, it would make sense to require them to use a village lab (or build their own) to further their understanding of how something like this would work.

The entirety of this is to better character development. You and your character spend so much time working towards this powerful technique. What this breeds is a connection with the technique that allows you to fully understand it and effectively use it in character. In addition, it also allows for more creativity. If you're in the lab or in the field, practicing chakra control for this, then you may suddenly decide that you want to change or add something. In this case, you totally can, you're still trying to train it, keep making it your own.

What I hope this system will do is to stop the proverbial arms race. If you want an S or SS rank technique to do some powerful things, it's going to take an investment. What I also hope this will do is make everyone shy away from using canon techniques and making, in essence, duplicate characters of ones in the manga. Lastly, I also think that there should be a maximum to the amount of S or SS rank techniques. This should depend on what exactly the ability can do. For instance, if we say the max is 3 SS rank techniques, Rasenshuriken could take a slot; but something like Edo Tensei should take all 3.

Thoughts?

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PostSubject: Re: Jutsu Limits   Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:48 pm

It makes sense, and gives us something to do. It's a well sounding plan, because we can honestly be impartial unlike staff on other sites when dealing with jutsu. S-rank jutsu and SS-rank jutsu being looked over by us all... It'll stop lesser roleplayers from trying to troll the site because they'll give up under all the scrutiny. I like it and I back this idea.

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PostSubject: Re: Jutsu Limits   Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:23 pm

I like the idea, Rivu. One part I disagree with, though.

Quote :
Lastly, I also think that there should be a maximum to the amount of S or SS rank techniques. This should depend on what exactly the ability can do. For instance, if we say the max is 3 SS rank techniques, Rasenshuriken could take a slot; but something like Edo Tensei should take all 3.
I get where you're going with this, but I personally don't like being restricted on how many techniques of those ranks you can learn. I'd rather just keep the idea of having to invest for it that you mentioned, then if you want more high-rank techniques, you'll just have to keep investing lots. If I want to be like the 2nd Hokage and know multiple SS-Ranked techniques like Edo tensei and FTG, I should be able to!

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PostSubject: Re: Jutsu Limits   Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:34 pm

Yah, seems I went ahead and approved a lot of OP things, does this make me a bad admin, does this make me a horrible site runner, maybe it does, but I'm trying to work on this, does this ake this a run on sentence, yes it does. Sorry.

However, I admit that some of these things I did not really agree with in the first place. Nakago insisted I let him have the black hole eye thing, and Ryuji highly stressed to me why his jutsu that I told him seemed OP to me, were not OP. They won, I gave in. Sad I am going to keep my opinions on things from now on and put my foot down.

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PostSubject: Re: Jutsu Limits   Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:25 pm

Quote :
I am going to keep my opinions on things from now on and put my foot down.
Hoorah! Just remember, you're the big boss around here. They gotta listen to you, not vice-versa Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Jutsu Limits   Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:19 pm

Yeah, I was discussing this with Ren Hyuga yesterday and he agreed that the maximum is a little restricting. Then again, look at Orochimaru who is seeking immortality to learn all sorts of powerful techniques. What Ren came up with was an unlock system.

Let's say that the base maximum amount of SS rank techniques is 1. That means you can go out and learn/develop powerful techniques like Edo Tensei or FTG. After that, you could spend an amount of experience to unlock additional slots. Depending on how much we want to value these techniques, we could range this expenditure from 300 to 1000 or higher. I'm leaning more towards the 500 range, myself.

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PostSubject: Re: Jutsu Limits   Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:37 pm

If you wanted to go with that, I suppose we could. I feel like for simplicities sake we could just leave it without restrictions and let SS-rank techniques cost a hefty sum. I'm all good for whatever, though, as long as you can get more.

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PostSubject: Re: Jutsu Limits   Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:04 pm

I don't know about the unlocking thing. Exp is easy to come by here, after all.

Honestly, I don't think we should even have SS-rank jutsu. S-rank should be the cap, with us using common sense and our intelligence to approve and deny things according to what we've already said.

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PostSubject: Re: Jutsu Limits   Sat Aug 10, 2013 1:35 am

Nakago Yaiba wrote:
I don't know about the unlocking thing. Exp is easy to come by here, after all.

Honestly, I don't think we should even have SS-rank jutsu. S-rank should be the cap, with us using common sense and our intelligence to approve and deny things according to what we've already said.
By "S-rank should be the cap," do you mean that techniques we'd deem to be SS-ranked shouldn't be approved, or that we should just let 'em slap a S-rank on it and just say it's a damn powerful S-rank? xD

I assume the first one, but I just want to make sure, lol.

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PostSubject: Re: Jutsu Limits   Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:31 am

I'd have to give my personal opinion in this and not my staff opinion, to give a perspective of a member. I, as a member and rper here, am against a cap on how many S/SS ranks I can learn. Now for my staff opinion on other things; OMG I LOVE MOST OF THAT WALL OF TEXT. Going on a quest to learn your massively powerful fucking beast ball fucking eye socket balck hole fucking scorch bomb fucking fuck fuck technique sounds awesome to me as a member and a staff member. With all my swearing of how awesome that sounds to me out of the way, I'd sum it up; We add a special tag to custom jutsu creation, called "Learning Process". What this does is, the creator can make some awesome process of how this needs to be learned, like a quest. Though this is only for S/SS ranked techniques. Then we, as staff, choose if that process is fitting, or too easy. There is no such thing as too hard, ITS S/SS RANKED IT SHOULD BE HARD. So, if its too easy, you give an ultimatum; Either they make it harder, or the staff member makes it for them, and if we do that it would be like REALLY hard. If I create (I will most likely create one or two) S/SS ranked techniques, I will choose my process to be; My character holds scrolls which he found on his clan's sacred temple in Konoha that the Uchiha had destroyed, he never opened them (this is real, not an example, it should make sense IC), now he opens one, and sees this amazing technique ranked S. Now the scroll says he can't learn it unless he goes to the temple on mount whatever and do this and this, then suddenly a staff member goes FUCK YOU MOFO, WANT THAT SCORCH BOMB? THEN DEFEAT A TEAM OF UCHIHA THAT CAME TO LOOK FOR SOME RANDOM STUFF YO~. So ya, once I defeat the Uchiha I'd finish the process written on the scroll and be done with it.

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PostSubject: Re: Jutsu Limits   Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:41 am

More complicated systems might also confuse some people who are used to more simpler systems. I would like it to stay where an SS rank jutsu just costs a hell of a lot of XP, OR word count. There shouldn't be any kind of restrictions on one's capability to learn and or create jutsu, no matter how strong it is. The ability to use them will and always has been based upon the user's chakra amount (stamina). Therefore no one could really person SS rank after SS rank, after SS rank, unless the user was something like a Jinchuuriki or a Senju or Uzumaki with maximum chakra and some chakra seal thingy or chakra regeneration ability (etc.).....in which there would STILL be limitations for to make RPing fair, like the bijuu system on TNRPG and such.

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PostSubject: Re: Jutsu Limits   Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:24 pm

I disagree. While stamina is a major decider in what a character can and cannot do, that may become trivial based on the techniques. I use the example of Rasenshuriken and Edo Tensei because those techniques, while both powerful, have drastic differences in their costs and drawback.

In defense of the questing system, Jun. It's similar to the unlocking of the Mangekyo Sharingan. Great power, like the one's afforded by massive balls of fire of or the black hole eye techniques, should not be handed out for mere Exp or word count. Development of powerful techniques takes dedication and the player is rewarded with an ability that is both powerful and, since we could allow for individual alterations to even canon techniques among players, unique. Something like Kamui, for example. Kakashi uses it to send objects in the distance into his dimension. Obito, however, uses Kamui to send parts of his own body away, allowing objects to pass through him. In the same regard, Edo Tensei was extremely unrefined. Orochimaru and, later, Kabuto would improve upon it themselves.

I'll use Konohagakure and the Hokage as an example. Because Naruto comes from Konoha and the story takes place primarily around there, they have a lot more revealed cannon techniques. In the system we currently use, for roughly 1000 Exp and 2000 words, someone could learn and master both the Eight Gates and Flying Thunder God. Now, those two together can create a character that is almost impossible to defeat. If we look at canon characters: The Second Hokage used the Flying Thunder God and a lesser variation of Edo Tensei. The Fourth Hokage used the Flying Thunder God and that was primarily it. Guy knows the Eight Gates and nothing else. The Forth and Third Raikage know LRA exclusively.

I like the idea of restricting the maximum because these techniques are insanely powerful. The reason why there is no one with a ridiculous arsenal of these techniques are two fold. One, most people in this universe do not have the time or physical capacity to even learn all or even any of these techniques. The main antagonist for the longest time was striving for immortality because he knew that learning all of them in a human lifespan was impossible. Two, the writer knew that giving too many people too many techniques would fuck with the balance of power.

While I agree that, as players, restricting people's capabilities is less than attractive. However, if we allow people to become Doctor Manhattan, then I know not with what weapons The Sixth Great Ninja War will be fought, but The Seventh will be fought with sticks and stones.

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PostSubject: Re: Jutsu Limits   Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:15 pm

I hate to say it but I looked at Temp's site and realized something people want those OP techs they don't want restrictions and they sure as hell don't want to spend a ton of exp to get a tech. I don't have time to make a big post but you should get the point.

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PostSubject: Re: Jutsu Limits   Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:45 pm

From our newest member Kassou

In relation to using OP techniques why not take the series as an example and make either the too strong techniques or morally wrong techniques and make them "FORBIDDEN". By classifying the tech. as 'forbidden' it locks that tech. from use except for certain situations or approved scenarios. (ex. Edo Tensei the reanimation jutsu is forbidden in the series and only a few people can use it, in the spirit of the game anyone can learn it, even so they don't use it lightly as their primary means of fighting even orochimaru didn't depend solely on that technique, elsewise he would have used it when fighting naruto and team 7 on the bridge when naruto used the nine tails cloak. an argument could be made that the tech. has long term negative effects and too much use weakens you, you being the player character, permantly by reducing ninjutsu stat by 10-20 points for anywhere from a day to a month depending on the frequency of use. For every use of the tech. your penalty is increased by 50% time as the last penalty. Even hockey players are sent to the box when the mess up why shouldn't players.)

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PostSubject: Re: Jutsu Limits   Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:57 am

I recognize that players don't want restrictions. However, without them, games turn into simulators. If we allow everyone to be able to learn Edo Tensei, for example, it would have no meaning what so ever. The restrictions are not there to keep the players down; they are there so that when the player does learn a powerful technique, they may be the only one out there that can use it. Sure, others could see it and attempt to recreate it or even improve upon it; if they take time to do so, but it makes the time, effort and results unique to the player.

With restrictions, players become more familiar with the technique and, consequently, become better at using it in RP situations. Without them, everyone and their mothers will have a handful of hyper powerful techniques. What then? Mass destruction. In a world where everyone is powerful, no one is. We should reward time and commitment, not joining.

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Naruto RPG: Reformation :: Information :: Reforumotion Board-
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